117 – Maestro Stevens on Inclusivity in Website Design Decisions

[00:00:00] Nathan Wrigley: Welcome to the Jukebox podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.

Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, inclusivity in web design decisions.

If you’d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast, player of choice. Or by going to WPTavern.com forward slash feed forward slash podcast. And you can copy that URL in to most podcasts players.

If you have a topic that you’d like us to feature on the podcast, I’m keen to hear from you, and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to WPTavern.com forward slash contact forward slash jukebox, and use the form there.

So on the podcast today, we have Maestro Stevens.

Maestro is an international speaker and managing director of The Iconic Expressions. His areas of expertise include digital marketing, brand strategy, web development, and project leadership.

In this episode, Maestro lays out the case for how inclusivity is not just something that we need to be concerned about at things like events, but also in our WordPress website designs.

Maestro recently gave a presentation at WordCamp Asia entitled unlocking universal creativity, the future of inclusive WordPress design. He wants to get people to think about making design choices with inclusivity in mind so that they’re representative of various cultures and varied backgrounds.

Maestro reveals the challenges and the pushback he is faced on his journey, telling us about the struggles and support he’s found within the community.

His approach includes utilizing AI to create unique imagery, reflective of a diverse population, and how he sees this as something new in the industry.

The discussion also gets into the practical side as well, with Maestro outlining some of the technical aspects and future plans for his ideas, extending an open invitation to listeners who wish to contribute or learn more.

If you curious about the intersection of creativity, representation, and the WordPress ecosystem, this episode is for you.

If you’re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to WPTavern.com forward slash podcast, where you’ll find all the other episodes as well.

A quick note, before we begin, this was recorded live at WordCamp Asia. There was quite a lot of background noise to contend with, and I’ve done my best to make the audio as easy to listen to as possible.

And so without further delay, I bring you Maestro Stevens.

I am joined on the podcast by Maestro Stevens. How are you doing?

[00:03:16] Maestro Stevens: I’m doing great. I’m doing excellent.

[00:03:18] Nathan Wrigley: Very nice to have you with us. We’re at WordCamp Asia. We’re in the venue. Maestro is joining me on the second day of the conference, so it’s the third day, including contributor day. You’ve already done your presentation, which I think you did yesterday?

[00:03:32] Maestro Stevens: Yes I did.

[00:03:32] Nathan Wrigley: It was entitled Unlocking Universal Creativity, the Future of Inclusive WordPress Design. We’re going to get into that, and have a conversation around that subject in a moment. Before we do that, Maestro, will you just spend a minute telling us who you are, and what your WordPress journey is, your relationship with WordPress.

[00:03:52] Maestro Stevens: And all I have is a minute, Nathan?

[00:03:53] Nathan Wrigley: Just one minute. Just a minute. The clock starts, no. As long as you like.

[00:03:59] Maestro Stevens: Well, first of all, thank you for having me again. This is an honor. And for us to be in person is another honor. As you mentioned, my name is Maestro Stevens, the fresh prince of WordPress. And my whole goal is bringing a fresh perspective to those who have a misunderstanding of what WordPress is.

In my spare time, I love to cook. I used to be a chef, in another life. I have a daughter. I love technology. I love creating opportunities. I love creating dreams for people, bringing people to WordCamp for the first time. That’s my spiel.

[00:04:31] Nathan Wrigley: Well, that’s really nice, and you’ve missed out something, which is that you’re also really into audio. And we spent a good 10 minutes before we hit record, just obsessing about the equipment that we’ve got. Which, as you can probably hear, dear listener, is not as good as it could be. But it’s what we’ve got. It’s portable, and it will do the job.

So tell us about the talk. Give us the nitty gritty on why you chose that title. What was it all about? And we’ll have a journey, a conversation, and dig into it.

[00:04:58] Maestro Stevens: Yeah. Well, I got a confession to make. The title is a little bit of a hook. You know, it’s nothing new that we don’t do. However, it’s still authentic, in as far as the presentation is concerned, mainly because I wanted to bridge the gap with helping people understand that, when it comes to diverse creators, people from ethnic backgrounds or different backgrounds, such as WordCamp Asia, that accessibility can be used interchangeably with the word inclusivity.

Because when you are making things accessible, you’re saying, I want to include others. And sometimes we separate those two terminologies. They have different meanings, but they are cousins or, you know, family related. So I really wanted to help people understand that our platform, Iconic Templates, which is what I was talking about yesterday, is a platform created for those who want to be included, and need to access certain tools and solutions, that typically would normally not have access.

[00:05:50] Nathan Wrigley: What you’ve just described, is this something that you find important on a personal level? Is this a journey, not just in the WordPress space? Is this something that you, I was going to use the word preach, but that’s the wrong word, adjacent to preach. Is this something that you talk about in other spheres as well?

[00:06:05] Maestro Stevens: Yes. I would say, well, one, to answer your question, it is a passion of mine. I ran into a lot of issues myself. I think us business owners, and entrepreneurs, and creators, a lot of the problems that we solve for others, stem from us. And something that I would say I did not see a lot of, when I was looking at something as templates on the internet, and I’m not going to point out any particular company but, you know, there’s just a lot of templates that I saw, that didn’t have imagery and representation that reminded me of me.

You know, I know it’s controversial, because I’ve got some backlash from this in certain communities. People are just going to take the content out anyway. They’re going to replace the images and replace the things. But the reality is, people want to see them. They want to hear them. They want to know that the company, that’s creating tools for them, thought of them in mind. Hey, we’re going to make this thing, and then we’re going to slap on some stuff.

Whereas, we’ve created everything. We’ve created with certain cultures, and certain industries in mind. From not just the imagery and the content, but even the structure and the layout. So we are coming from the forefront, and not the aftermath of adding others.

[00:07:10] Nathan Wrigley: It sounds, from what you just said, as if there’s been a little bit of pushback from certain people. Is that the minority? Do you find WordPress, as a community, I mean obviously that’s a bit of an umbrella phrase, and you know, it’s made of millions and millions of different people. But, do you find the WordPress community, on the whole, receptive to what you are saying? Or is it more a case of, you are having to push back, and explain yourself over and over again, and being challenged and pushing back?

[00:07:37] Maestro Stevens: Well, Nathan, yes. I’ve been challenged a lot. To be transparent with you, when we launched a year and a half ago with this platform, inside of a couple communities, very small, we had good reception only because I made an adjustment, because I got scared.

The first thing that happened, when I said I’m going to create this platform for diverse creators and BIPOC communities, people, for lack of a better term, did not like that. They gave me a lot of negative feedback. So what I did is I said, okay, well let’s create the platform for everybody.

I spoke at WordCamp Europe. Then I spoke at WordCamp US. Now I’m here speaking at WordCamp Asia. And I realised that there are a lot of people that do want to see, I would say the type of, not product, but the type of solutions, and the type of representation. But I had to meet these people in real life, and I had to learn my tribe. And every WordPress community is not your tribe, even if they, quote unquote, liked your product before.

[00:08:34] Nathan Wrigley: Do you get a sense that this is a case of the quiet majority who don’t speak up to support what you are doing? Do you get that feeling? Because it sounds like, when you’ve come to these events, you have met kindred spirits, people who are aligned with what you are aligned with, but you had to go and find them. Which kind of tells me they were always there in the first place, but they didn’t let you know that they were there.

So is it a case of that? You know, people just keeping quiet and putting their head under the parapet, to dodge the proverbial arrow.

[00:09:02] Maestro Stevens: Yeah, I think it’s a little bit of all that. And it’s crazy that I’m learning how to, I don’t want to say play the game, but be careful on the things that I say, because I can be very outspoken at times. That’s a gift and a curse, in some ways.

So with that being said, I do think that it is, when you say the word minority and majority, there are people that are afraid to speak up, and there are people who don’t want to speak up, because it will ruin their opportunities and their, what they’ve gained, I guess, growing in the ladder of WordPress.

Because there’s gatekeepers in WordPress. You know, there’s people that you have to appease in certain ways. And there’s people that don’t want to hear your voice all the time. So I do think, to your point, when you think about it, the majority versus the minority, it’s a little bit of all. But I do think there’s a lot of people who are afraid to say something, and there’s people who don’t want to say something, because they don’t want to ruin what they have.

[00:09:51] Nathan Wrigley: That sort of feels a bit upsetting really though, doesn’t it? On some level, it feels like that’s a bit of a shame. But you’re right. We definitely have some strong characters in the WordPress community.

Are you talking about being online? So in, you know, groups, on various different platforms. Is it that kind of community that you’ve been involved in?

[00:10:09] Maestro Stevens: Yes.

[00:10:09] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, okay. And there are some definite characters, aren’t there? And some people who have fairly loud voices.

[00:10:14] Maestro Stevens: Yes.

[00:10:15] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. So you’ve made the effort to come out and speak about these things. At these events, have you felt that you’ve had a nice reception? Has it been a different experience?

[00:10:24] Maestro Stevens: Good question. I would say, not to be redundant, but a little bit of both. Going to WordCamp Europe was an eyeopener. Athens, Greece, I mean, well, one, not a lot of people that live there that look like me. I stood out immediately, just from that perspective. And then actually going to WordCamp itself, where we’re told that they are looking at it from an inclusive lens and, you know, we want to involve everybody, make everybody feel comfortable.

When I actually got in the venue, in the building, I thought that the stares were going to stop. You know, I thought that the looks were going to stop, and they didn’t all stop. And that’s not everybody, but it was quite obvious, and quite a few. But I will definitely say, when I did my presentation, those people who joined the presentation showed love. When I did a presentation yesterday, those who joined showed love. I’ve been seeing random people say, hey man, I saw your presentation yesterday. I didn’t even know they did.

And then I got way more questions than I ever would’ve thought I would’ve gotten, because people were like, oh, he’s not afraid to talk about this. And so they’re raising their hands and they’re saying, well, what do I do? I’m hearing that from people from all across the world. And I love that. So that, to me, is what sticks out more than anything. The rest of the nonsense, for lack of a better term, I’m striving to kind of let that go.

[00:11:35] Nathan Wrigley: Do you feel safe in these spaces?

[00:11:38] Maestro Stevens: Hmm.

[00:11:38] Nathan Wrigley: It’s not an immediate yes.

[00:11:41] Maestro Stevens: No, it’s not immediate yes.

[00:11:42] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I mean, we don’t have to go down that path if you don’t wish to. But I am curious, because we are quite good as a community at congratulating ourselves, on how accommodating we are. And we definitely have people, and I know that you know many of the people that I’m not going to name, but you probably will intuit who I’m talking about, who fight this fight, and they make the effort.

But it is interesting to me that despite all of that, there’s still, it sounds like considerable amounts of work to be done. The example of WordCamp Athens that you’ve just described, that doesn’t sound like a particularly pleasant experience that you had there.

[00:12:19] Maestro Stevens: I’m grateful that I had the opportunity to even go. That changed my life. I encourage anybody who is thinking of getting a different perspective of life in the world, it doesn’t matter what kind of pushback or resistance that you get, travel. Travel to places that you would’ve never been before. Even if you’re going to get looked at, and stared at, and feel uncomfortable, because you’ll learn to be comfortable with being uncomfortable, which will give you a different perspective.

So, to your point, and going back to the whole safety aspect of things, I would say I don’t always feel the safety net that I would love to be able to speak up. I will say that, for the most part, going to Athens, Greece, as an example, it reminded me of WordPress is also a reflection of the world too, to a degree. We still have some work to do in the world, you know, everywhere. And WordPress is doing what it can to help mitigate that. But I do think, to your point, there’s a lot of work to be done.

And just really quickly, I’ve called out some founders. And when it came to certain issues or certain things, to help support me and back me up, and I’ve noticed that they’ve chose profit over passion, you know, over mission. And the funny part is, the data shows, because I’m a data analyst, you know, I have an agency as well too. Data shows that most people, they want to purchase, and they want to deal with brands that actually are mission based. How ironic is that.

So it’s kind of a catch 22 that, you know, there’s these founders that don’t want to touch certain issues. Most people purchase based on, is there a mission, a value, the reasons? They’re not just purchasing on quality, you know, things like that. It’s, who is behind it? Why are they doing it? What are they doing it for?

[00:13:57] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. It’s interesting, I often end up at the about page, soon after I’ve gone to the pricing page, because I do want to know about the company that I’m buying the plugin, or whatever it may be. And it, yeah, it does play a certain part.

I’m going to ask this question. Feel free to ignore it, because I don’t know what pitfalls there may be inside this. Does geography play a part in this? Do you find that you can have this conversation more easily at home, for example, in the US? Is it a conversation that’s being more advanced, more acceptable to have, more straightforward?

We’ve obviously mentioned Europe, we’ve got Asia, there’s different complexities. They’ve obviously got their own things going on. But, do you notice that geography plays a part in this?

[00:14:36] Maestro Stevens: Yes, I think so. And I had some conversations today with a couple other founders from East Asia, and it was great to hear that I’m, they’re from a different country and different culture. They’re saying they find the same issues. I’m like, so I’m not crazy. You know, it’s not an American thing, you know what I mean? It’s not a US thing. It’s an everywhere thing, and global positioning does play a part in it.

However, I am grateful that WordPress has people like yourself, and people that are, I would consider allied. Creating platforms where people like me can talk, and speak about these issues, because otherwise people are normally just trying to kind of suppress the conversation.

[00:15:13] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. It’s interesting, isn’t it? Because, we’ve talked for probably about 15 minutes so far, and it feels like we might have been being very negative, but I’m not feeling that really. I’m feeling more like there’s a lot of goodness in the WordPress community, but no community is a hundred percent perfect, and there’s work to be done. And you have had experiences which are real. They happen, they existed. You’ve talked to these people, and you’ve got these receptions, so it needs to be addressed.

Your product, you’ve said, tries to address this. And I’m curious as to how templates, parts of a website, how we can map the conversation that we’ve just had, over to a product. So tell me about that. I mean, you alluded to it a little while ago, but just really flesh out what Iconic Templates is, and what it does, and why it’s different.

[00:16:04] Maestro Stevens: I love this question, because it helps give me a different perspective of, how do I define it? And I’m learning, you know, based on the reception. I would say, for the most part, our goal with Iconic Templates, and this is the reason why some of our product lines have the word universal in them. For example, universal template themes, universal template library.

I believe that a big problem in the WordPress ecosystem, and in other ecosystems, is that a person says, hey, I like that look. I like that style, but I don’t use that tool. And so what we are trying to do, striving to do, because Yoda says, you do or you don’t, there is no try.

So what we’re striving to do is bridge that gap for people to say, you’ve made a style or a look that fits me. Whatever it is they do, whatever industry, vertical they’re in, whatever ethnic background they have. And they’re like, but I use the classic editor still, I don’t use full site, or I use the page builder. Do you have that look and that style in the page builder that I use? Do you have that look and that style with a plugin that I use? You know, there’s email plugins, there’s form plugins, there’s automation plugins.

So what we’re striving to do with Iconic Templates is create this universal tether. An ecosystem where you’re saying, I like that look and that style, but I may want to use this plugin versus this plugin. I want to use this theme versus that theme, but I want to keep the theme.

[00:17:25] Nathan Wrigley: So, if we were to go to iconictemplates.com, and we were to look at your, I’m going to use the word library, because I think you said that, your library of patterns.

[00:17:34] Maestro Stevens: So for instance, we have a library called Uni-Blocks. And so our Uni-Blocks library is block patterns. Keep it short and simple. Our Uni-Blocks library currently is created with Kadence Blocks, for example. So our next step would be creating it with Elementor widgets or Spectra, for example. That’s pretty much what we’re doing.

[00:17:53] Nathan Wrigley: What would I be seeing? I’m imagining I’m on the website, I know we’re doing audio, so it’s very hard to do this. Bear with us, we’ll try and get there. What would I be seeing that would be different from what I might see elsewhere? How would you explain the visual difference of what I might see with what you’ve got, than what other companies bring to bear?

[00:18:12] Maestro Stevens: Well, one, you’re going to see a lot of imagery of black and brown people, and people from other ethnic backgrounds. You’re going to see a lot of that. Two, you’re going to see a little bit of, we’ll say nerdiness, geekiness, mixes with cool, intentionally mixed with some coolness.

I have a background where, I love Hip-Hop. I haven’t seen anybody infuse Hip-Hop into their template platform. So when you go on our platform, you’re going to see these backgrounds. I said this in my presentation yesterday, one of my favorite artists is Jay-Z. And when we first started the platform, I didn’t know who I was. So we made our color scheme with a whole bunch of colors, all over the rainbow.

And I can’t make this up, one day this is going to be a famous story, but it was a reflection of who I was. I didn’t have my identity intact, so our company and our brand didn’t have its identity intact. It came to me in an epiphany, in a eureka moment. I was working with my designer Dessa, and she needed more inspiration from me, on how to create this design, or layout for our site.

I was stuck. I had a dream. I was like, man, who’s my favorite artist? Oh, Jay-Z. What album did he make that’s one of my favorite albums? The Blueprint. Aren’t templates blueprints, aren’t we as people, blueprints? So then I was like, oh, it’s blue, and the color of blue is solidarity. There’s meanings behind blue. And most companies use blue. You know, a lot of tech companies use blue.

So I said, what is the odds of that? That tech companies use blue, one of my favorite artists has an album called The Blueprint, and we are blueprints for others. So when you go to our website, you’re going to see a blue background with little templates. And that was inspired by Jay-Z’s album, The Blueprint.

[00:19:46] Nathan Wrigley: And so, you mentioned the imagery is a big part. You’re differentiating yourself by going out, and deliberately finding images, which represent the entire world. Does it also stretch to text? Are you surfacing text that you think is aligned in this way as well?

[00:20:02] Maestro Stevens: Well, Nathan, here’s the thing, I’m going to blow your mind here. One of our big value propositions, or values, is transparency. So, I say our process is a template, our website is a template, and we offer templates. What do I mean by that? Everything we’ve done, I’ve intentionally done in a way that can be duplicated for others. We’re going to teach from that. The process is a template.

People can go to our website, and literally look at our website and say, I want to copy what you’ve done. And what most people don’t know is, every image you’re going to see, is made with AI. We do a lot of experimentation. So we use Midjourney, for example. So you said the word find, no, we didn’t find, we created, generated, based on words, based on the text. So there’s not a single image on that website that you will see, that you will find anywhere else, in any stock library.

[00:20:47] Nathan Wrigley: Right. So it’s unique. It isn’t from a stock library.

[00:20:50] Maestro Stevens: Not at all.

[00:20:51] Nathan Wrigley: How has the platform launched? Since the moment you went public with it, and you’ve put it out there, how has the reception been? I mean, I’m guessing by the fact that you are here in WordCamp Asia, and obviously are making a living out of this in some way, shape, or form, it must be going all right. But I don’t know, you tell me.

[00:21:06] Maestro Stevens: Well, we’re still in the beginning stages, I’ll say that. So I’m still learning to simplify things. One of our biggest problems that we had with our templates, which I’ve talked to a couple founders today, who are going to help solve this problem, I’m grateful. But it was cumbersome for people to import our templates.

So even though we have these different solutions, where you can import our form templates, email templates and automations, you had to do it all one by one. But we’re going to create a plugin, or a solution, where it’s a one click, you just click the button and you get to import everything.

So I’m saying this to say that, our reception, I can’t give a direct answer with that just yet, because I haven’t had enough time being able to get feedback. The feedback that I have gotten has been really well. But I’ve also gotten feedback that let me know, hey, you’ve got some room to grow. And so we made changes based on that.

[00:21:52] Nathan Wrigley: Is there any element of this which is a community project? Because obviously you’ve built a company around it, or you’ve adapted, you know, it’s a part of your other companies. But do you welcome contributions or ideas? Do you have a form out there, where people can give you suggestions?

[00:22:07] Maestro Stevens: Heck yeah. I’m getting ready to work with another designer, a designer from BlackPress, shout out to Wyn. Anybody else who wants to contribute, involve, collaborate. I know I would appreciate it, I know my designer Dessa would appreciate it. Some help, you know, from others.

And the reason why I say that is because, to be, again, transparent, she’s from the Philippines. So to have a person who’s from a different country create imagery, or create designs for another culture, for people who are not them, it could be a little difficult.

[00:22:35] Nathan Wrigley: Right.

[00:22:36] Maestro Stevens: So I want to bring some authenticity into it. For instance, I want to bring people from their own countries, and their own cultures, to help tell me, hey Maestro, you need to do this with that. That’s not what my people like. You may be reading the blogs, and reading things, and watching videos, but that’s not what we look like. That’s not what we do. So I need people like that, so that way we can be authentic when we’re representing them.

[00:22:57] Nathan Wrigley: Where would you signpost people to go in the WordPress community? If things that you’ve mentioned so far have turned a light on with them, and they think, oh, this is something I could get involved in. I think I’ve got a voice that would help Maestro out. This is something that I’m aligned with. What kind of places would you go? Maybe that could be, I don’t, Slack channels, or it could be something different. It could be an individual who you’ve been impressed by, who you thought, okay, they’re really perfectly aligned. Tell us where to go.

[00:23:26] Maestro Stevens: BlackPress is one of the communities that I’m heavily involved in, and I respect, because the founders are aligned with a lot of my views. There are other communities as well, that I’m discovering that could be as much of an intricate part in our mission, in our journey. However, I don’t know enough now to say, you know, all those communities are, at this point in time. And the communities that I thought were that, I found out they’re not that. Right now I’m in a little bit of a transition of, who are my communities and tribes that I can pull from and find?

[00:23:57] Nathan Wrigley: But we can certainly, when we round off this podcast, we can reference you. And people can come and find you and, you know, maybe it’s a year from now, and you’ll have had a more solid idea of where you would want people to go.

It sounds to me like you’re at the beginning of this journey then. You’re still trying to crystallise everything. You’re still thinking about the roadmap, you’re still figuring it out, and all of that. Where would we go if we wanted to find you? What’s the website? I think I mentioned it, but tell us again. What social channels, email address, whatever you want to share, where can we find you, Maestro?

[00:24:27] Maestro Stevens: Well, at this moment in time, you can just go to the website, and go to our contact page. If you really care, and you want to be involved, we have a nice form there. You know, I strive to make it as welcoming as possible for people. Or you can contact me on LinkedIn. So it’s either iconictemplates.com, you can find me on LinkedIn, Maestro Stevens, is a one of one. I don’t think there’s anybody else in the world with that name. So you can either Google me, you can LinkedIn, you can go to the website Iconic Templates, or you can send a bird, you know? We can go old school, send a pigeon.

[00:24:59] Nathan Wrigley: Is there anything we missed? Do you want to say something that we missed out on?

[00:25:01] Maestro Stevens: I think you hit a lot of things on the nail. I just want to say that it is great to be here to see you in person. I don’t know how long it was. Maybe, it feels like a year where.

[00:25:10] Nathan Wrigley: I think about a year.

[00:25:11] Maestro Stevens: Yeah, Yeah we had our first interview online. So now, a year later, we’re meeting in person. It just shows how you just never know, and showing up is half the battle.

[00:25:20] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I love events like this. I get to meet fabulous people much like yourself. So, Maestro, thank you very much for chatting to me on the podcast today. I really appreciate it.

[00:25:29] Maestro Stevens: Thank you, Nathan. I really appreciate you. You’re doing a great job with your podcast, with your platform. You are consistent. You are a working horse.

[00:25:38] Nathan Wrigley: I just wish had a better microphone at this event. But you can teach me all about that when we switch this one off.

[00:25:43] Maestro Stevens: I’m going to give you some tips.

[00:25:44] Nathan Wrigley: Take care, Maestro.

[00:25:45] Maestro Stevens: Alright. Thank you.